tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post5764563252152034134..comments2023-10-12T09:29:51.035-05:00Comments on The Podium: Prop 8 And The African American VoteRev. Christopher J. Pattonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15020185341644873695noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-49908967069710912612008-11-14T19:01:00.000-06:002008-11-14T19:01:00.000-06:00Homosexuality is not a race and cannot be directly...Homosexuality is not a race and cannot be directly compared to the discrimination against blacks or other racial minorities. According to what I have read in this post, racial discrimination is alive and well in those voting against proposition 8.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-76397468044165753132008-11-09T14:15:00.000-06:002008-11-09T14:15:00.000-06:00As to the marriages, that is. I'm aware of the ado...As to the marriages, that is. I'm aware of the adoption case in Massachusetts and fully support it. Any such marriage cases would be ridiculous.Rev. Christopher J. Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15020185341644873695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-89145131513574776242008-11-09T14:13:00.000-06:002008-11-09T14:13:00.000-06:00Anonymous, you said:"A conflicting right was expos...Anonymous, you said:<BR/><BR/>"A conflicting right was exposed when a number of gay couples decided to sue churches that did not wish to perform gay weddings or adopt children to them -- and those couples won."<BR/><BR/>Could you give some citations for this? I'm unaware of any such cases.Rev. Christopher J. Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15020185341644873695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-80957029654010932102008-11-08T23:07:00.000-06:002008-11-08T23:07:00.000-06:00Part of what upsets many people about the way the ...Part of what upsets many people about the way the Prop 8 vote turned out is that a large percentage of its supporters came from peoples who have historically been persecuted and discriminated against (blacks and Mormons), even as to their marriage rights. It has also been pointed out that many supporters come from religious traditions that teach love and respect for others. And according to the numbers, many Prop 8 supporters had to have also been Obama supporters. It might be reasonable to think that those who voted for Obama tend towards attitudes that are more along the progressive spectrum.<BR/> <BR/>So, what gives...? Could it be possible that given the demographics of the Prop 8 supporters -- people who can empathize with discrimination -- that the yes vote was based on something OTHER than the wish to discriminate...?<BR/><BR/>The reason this is such a mess is that marriage is not the proper role of government period.<BR/> <BR/>A conflicting right was exposed when a number of gay couples decided to sue churches that did not wish to perform gay weddings or adopt children to them -- and those couples won. Had these couples been content to take their marriage or adoption plans to churches that welcomed such unions, few would have felt threatened. Instead, they brought the aggression of the government down on those who held differing viewpoints, meaning that there is a very tangible threat to religious liberty.<BR/> <BR/>Religious liberty or gay marriage liberty...?<BR/> <BR/>Well, there is only a conflict because marriage is not the proper role of government in the first place. Marriage is a religious issue. Civil unions are the domain of government. <BR/> <BR/>Basically, litigious people who think they have a right to never get their feelings hurt set their own movement back a decade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-57318189701204770822008-11-07T18:16:00.000-06:002008-11-07T18:16:00.000-06:00Should have linked this instead:http://www.dailyko...Should have linked this instead:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272" REL="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272</A>tacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661344975130655338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-60816935500843512742008-11-07T18:01:00.000-06:002008-11-07T18:01:00.000-06:00http://ultramicah.blogspot.com/2008/11/dan-savage-...<A HREF="http://ultramicah.blogspot.com/2008/11/dan-savage-on-black-homophobia.html" REL="nofollow">http://ultramicah.blogspot.com/2008/11/dan-savage-on-black-homophobia.html</A>tacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661344975130655338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-73617915401532787902008-11-07T15:55:00.000-06:002008-11-07T15:55:00.000-06:00http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessio...http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=54D1220CFB102819EC0C13E0DAC968CE?diaryId=8051Rev. Christopher J. Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15020185341644873695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-34068378302412594002008-11-07T14:16:00.000-06:002008-11-07T14:16:00.000-06:00Your persistent refusal to listen to reason and ha...Your persistent refusal to listen to reason and hateful platitudes about "disease" in the black race are disgusting. You have no evidence to back up your racist preaching. The personal judgments you have made based on "black gays you know" (comments in previous posting) are evidence of your personal problem, not a social problem. Again, that's exactly how the menace of racism functions in our society and if you have any interest in truth and equality as opposed to being right, you would agree with me.<BR/><BR/>Your oversimplified, discriminatory train of thought is exactly what made people draw prejudiced judgments from black <A HREF="http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm" REL="nofollow">incarceration rates</A> and <A HREF="http://www.kidscount.org/datacenter/compare_results.jsp?i=722" REL="nofollow">single parenthood rates</A> to espouse racist ideas about African Americans being "diseased" with violence and parental responsibility, when in reality the factors you're encompassing when you try and group everyone together by race are much too complex to draw any real conclusions from. You are living proof that the civil rights movement of the 90's did not completely dispel those misconceptions.<BR/><BR/>Again: <B>The black exit poll data for Prop 9 considers only skin color, not broken down any further according to lifestyle or ideology.</B> Therefore it is racist to claim the statistic is wrong or that it indicates a social illness. Prove me wrong.tacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661344975130655338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-80359769781949527582008-11-06T20:27:00.000-06:002008-11-06T20:27:00.000-06:00Taco, you clearly know very little about this very...Taco, you clearly know very little about this very complicated issue. The 70-30 vote spread in favor of Prop 8 amongst African Americans in California on Nov. 4 is just a symptom. The disease is homophobia. And there's plenty of evidence that it is more rampant in the African American community than in the general population in the US. Taking note of this problem and suggesting that action be taken to fix it does not mean that I dislike people for being an African American. That's an entirely stupid thing for you to suggest. Your inability to recognize this just shows the extent to which I am wasting my breath in responding to you at all. Which is why I won't anymore. Continue to scream into the vacuum of cyberspace if you so desire. I really don't care.Rev. Christopher J. Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15020185341644873695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-48655008743887901262008-11-06T18:19:00.000-06:002008-11-06T18:19:00.000-06:00And I'm with Savage's detractors 100 percent. Your...And I'm with <A HREF="http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/black_homophobia#c1195494" REL="nofollow">Savage's detractors</A> 100 percent. Your "troll" problems are nothing compared to his.<BR/><BR/>Statistics are only numbers, interpretation of them is a completely subjective process and they don't inherently "prove" right and wrong.<BR/><BR/>By definition of the word racism, you and Slate and Savage and others making issue of these figures are being racist when you suggest that the statistics for African Americans being "high", suggesting the racial statistic should have been different, suggesting that Obama could or should have influenced them more politically in your favor. Your turning to skin color as an acceptable factor to blame the vote on, when the issue has inherently nothing whatsoever to do with race and the racial group you're blaming - like in so many other contexts - can statistically be shown to have only the tiniest impact on the matter.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't matter that the black Yes statistic is 70%! It's meaningless! You're getting that statistic from the arbitrary independent variable of skin color. Not religious blacks, not inner city blacks, no necessary ideological links whatsoever. <B>Only skin color.</B><BR/><BR/>Izzy9 is exactly right. You're only passing the blame because as a gay rights activist, you're far more culpable than any Californian voter is. I don't remember hearing you get involved and organize for speakers to get the message out in the Californian black churches, or anywhere in California for that matter. Again, the black vote is only the very smallest part of the equation here. The margin of passage was only 401,000 votes and there were some 1,000,000 voters in the state that didn't even vote on the ballot measure at all!! Where were you to convince them?<BR/><BR/>It's petty and insanely intolerant of you to make assumptions and try to pin the blame on a meaningless racial statistic under those circumstances. That's exactly how the racism mechanism has always worked, and I hope you realize that.tacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661344975130655338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-27836177547471135162008-11-06T17:53:00.000-06:002008-11-06T17:53:00.000-06:00Being a UI graduate who now works and lives in San...Being a UI graduate who now works and lives in San Francisco, I was also disheartened by the passing of proposition 8, and I'm glad that you've taken another spin on this issue than the typical anti-Christian effort. Many Christians, like myself, can separate church and state, and can realize that banning things like marriage to gays can only lead to hatred, and that certainly is not Christian. Kudos, Christopher.Brigidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04785311467719071409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23077414.post-54777939702677592942008-11-06T14:21:00.000-06:002008-11-06T14:21:00.000-06:00Now now. Watch yourself, Christopher. I've discove...Now now. Watch yourself, Christopher. I've discovered the hard way that some are 'sensitive' to the designation of troll. Evidently they don't call them trolls at the New York Times, and that's something to take example from.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16297512539811060710noreply@blogger.com